Tulpa.info - tulpa-questions-2

i do not wish to comment further and i do not intend to imply anything further than the literal meaning of what i said.

I'm still not sure if the term applies to me, to be honest. On the one hand, Rhys is not simple, he was not designed exclusively to be my lover, he was first and foremost, interesting, and a fictional foil for me or a protagonist depending on the perspective I was using when writing with him. On the other hand he is also defined by a non-platonic love for me that has been intentionally present in his design from the beginning, and that has only gotten stronger. There are things that Rhys is working through, challenging or deciding they accept, at the moment, but that core presumption is extremely solid it would seem, even after some really disturbing stuff has past between us. Rhys has questioned before if our relationship is healthy, but the question of whether they love me innately is ludicrous at this point. How else would you describe something that has never even questioned whether they love you other than a constructed husbando or waifu?

husbandomancy?

11:00 PM

autophilia

11:00 PM

wait no that's cars

Thank you for reminding me people like cars sexually. Also that dragons mating with cars is a specific fetish.

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11:01 PM

I consider that important information.

11:03 PM

Also if your tulpa is a male wife does that make him a waifu or a husbando?

Zen

Also if your tulpa is a male wife does that make him a waifu or a husbando?

WHAT

11:05 PM

#media ... HAHA jk!!!!!.... .... unless?

I feel like you responded to the wrong thing.

Zen

I feel like you responded to the wrong thing.

hearing that volcanoes happen is one thing, hearing the person you're talking to is in an active volcano is another

11:08 PM

i like talking to you because you're really smart and can understand just about any analogy i throw at you

I don't enjoy cars if that's what you mean.

proved my point!

Please remember this is #tulpa-questions-2

Zen

I'm still not sure if the term applies to me, to be honest. On the one hand, Rhys is not simple, he was not designed exclusively to be my lover, he was first and foremost, interesting, and a fictional foil for me or a protagonist depending on the perspective I was using when writing with him. On the other hand he is also defined by a non-platonic love for me that has been intentionally present in his design from the beginning, and that has only gotten stronger. There are things that Rhys is working through, challenging or deciding they accept, at the moment, but that core presumption is extremely solid it would seem, even after some really disturbing stuff has past between us. Rhys has questioned before if our relationship is healthy, but the question of whether they love me innately is ludicrous at this point. How else would you describe something that has never even questioned whether they love you other than a constructed husbando or waifu?

Given what you reported about you and Rhys, I wouldn't consider Rhys a husbando tulpa. In my opinion, a true waifu/husbando tulpa in the deragatory way would be a tulpa who is never given the option to express their will. You mentioned you gave Rhys fronting time and you asked them how they feel, and I think those are signs you're open to his point of view. Unquestioning love in of itself is not a bad thing

i feel that ranger is right

12:32 AM

you see, boyfriend literally means friend who is a boy, but it doesn't actually mean that

12:33 AM

in the same way, husbandomancy is husbando tulpamancy literally, but it implies so much more

On this topic, the part that makes me hesitant to accept your conclusion is that I'm not sure that "waifumancers" as you describe actually exist. It's a well known fact at this point that attempts to control tulpa development only succeed insofar as they are functional. Either such people don't have tulpas at all - Which is to say that one or both of them are not aware that the other is a person... Or they do advance predictably like any other thoughtform. A tulpa is just an idea, it's not something that can be mentally restrained any more than anyone else. It can only restrain itself.

9:09 PM

In pursuing someone who will indulge their need for romance, they very likely will get that. But that alone isn't sufficient for a personality, and personalities respond to things.

9:15 PM

Furthermore, people say that it's taboo to push a tulpa into accepting their given-personality or ideas, rather than growing beyond them. I have ignored this advice myself and encouraged Rhys to remain Rhys rather than undergoing some sort of arbitrary radical alteration of themselves. Part of that idea is as strange to me as people's general rejection of very strong personality forcing as immoral. With Mika I was way more "S-show me you're real by surprising me with development. Please, I can't handle it if you don't" - But that's complete folly as far as I can tell.

9:16 PM

It all strikes me as "Hah, their tulpas don't validate them in this particular way that they validate us and therefore they are not tulpas! Shun them!"

9:16 PM

Even though that kind of validation is an unhealthy trap that means literally nothing.

9:19 PM

Encouraging stability as a trait might actually be significantly more beneficial than presuming instability and "growth".

Rhys has not measurably changed since his arrival rather unlike in-narrative. They have responded pretty much as I had expected they would throughout. I have encouraged them to be happy, to be stable, to accept reality as it is. I also don't 100% indulge all their desires. When you say I am "open to their perspective" I feel like that... might be mostly wrong. Rhys' past is that of a self-deprecating, actually psychotic, mess. I've mentioned before but this thing we got goin' on is very much a weird master-apprentice thing, it's not equal at all I'd say - 10% of the time Rhys is right, I know he's right, and I'm just acting out motions before I acquiesce to whatever it is he wants. The rest of the time I'm very much the one going "this is how it's gonna be", even if that thing is "It's you time. Do things."

9:36 PM

What I would say I am open to, is his emotional responses to things.

Pretty neat to think about them not being aware the other is a person. Gotta bea surreal experience

It's kinda blase actually, imagine any fictional character. You're probably not currently aware that that thoughtform is in all technicality a person.

Yeah I'd cop to that. But it's the dual-sidedness of it I like thinking about.

But they almost certainly don't know you exist or at the very least don't view you as essentially their deity. Which is cooler.

9:53 PM

Unless you've self inserted yourself as an actual deity I suppose

Zen

It all strikes me as "Hah, their tulpas don't validate them in this particular way that they validate us and therefore they are not tulpas! Shun them!"

To be fair, this is basically what calling out a tulpa for being a waifu-tulpa is. (edited)

11:42 PM

Maybe minus it being specific to "validating in the same way" since it's possible they validate the same way but one person doesn't think the other meets the mark

How would they even be able to tell if someone else's does. Weird

It's particularly strange when you consider that romantic partners are inherently validating their partners in a way that non-romantic partners are not experiencing.

I feel like those are different? Tulpa-validation is a more functional-practical type of validation where relationship validation is more a social make-them-feel-good sort. (edited)

I'm not sure I'd know, given all of my tulpalationships have been tinged with non-platonic feels from the start.

2:39 AM

And being surprised has mostly been a detriment to us. A trap. The only positive tulpamancy related surprises I have experienced was the efficacy of certain techniques I can only allude to here.

LyricThunder

How would they even be able to tell if someone else's does. Weird

You can guesstimate a lot of things based on how somebody behaves, to be fair. And, because other people aren't in your head, sometimes they can actually form more accurate impressions of you than you have of yourself. Never dismiss the conclusions of other people just because they're from other people.

Development, has either been slow, steady, and predictable, or chaotic and inherently unstable - Driven by impulse and intrusive thought.

Reguile

You can guesstimate a lot of things based on how somebody behaves, to be fair. And, because other people aren't in your head, sometimes they can actually form more accurate impressions of you than you have of yourself. Never dismiss the conclusions of other people just because they're from other people.

It's hard tho when you see firsthand how much other people miss

I guess my thoughts on seeking "tulpa surprises" or validation through tests (prism test!) is a one two punch of failure. First failure - you're seeking out the tests in the first place because you're not confident, so you're already on losing ground. Second failure - there is no "good" or "complete" test, so if the test fails now your worries are validated, but if the test works you're going to turn around and run into new failures shortly that send you looking for another test so you can find validation again. In my experience the only answer you really have is to either/both a) find the failings driving your insecurity and improve on them, or b) adjust your model of what your tulpa is/should be until it's closer to what you have. Tests in that case are more exploratory, you take them to maybe help you find what's making you insecure, rather than looking for a one-pill-answer to that insecurity.

LyricThunder

It's hard tho when you see firsthand how much other people miss

People miss stuff about you, but you will also miss or happily remain ignorant of facts about yourself at times as well. I've been surprised by observations made about me in the past, thought about them, and realized "ahh shit, yeah, they're right".

question, can affirmations help speed the creation of a tulpa? I read a couple guides and one mentioned affirmations and I never thought to use that

absolutely. affirmations help bring about the right mindsets and focus the mind, something that can help with tulpamancy

ohh okay

What does possession feel like?

Full-body possession to me feels like zoning out or being distracted. It's a bit like staring off into space for no reason, but instead of having no thoughts in your head you have someone else's thoughts filling the void. However, if someone wanted to talk to me in person, there's a "huh, what?" feeling and I snap out of it. Partial possession feels a little weird if I overthink it. If I focus on the possessed body part I'll have the urge to move it. Otherwise, it can feel emotionally different, like how someone holding your hand can feel moving.

hi, i was apart of the community a few years back and ive decided to come back and see if anything is new, ive noticed that tulpas have been linked to did/osdd and plurality(understandable) whats the did/osdd communitys views on tulpas? (edited)

The broader plural community's opinion on tulpamancy depends on who you talk to. Some don't have a problem with tulpamancy while others foster hostility towards tulpamancers and other non-traumatic systems. I think it boils down to a fear non-traumatic plurality deligitimizes their experiences and a lack of understanding for what tulpamancy is. An important detail I find frustrating is when a traumatic system learns a little bit more about tulpamancy and then tries to convince the tulpa/tulpamancer they have undiagnosed osdd.

i see, what are all the types of systems if you dont mind me asking?

I don't know if I know all of the types of systems that exist, but I can tell you what I'm familiar with. In general, system "types" boil down to labels and what part of the broader plural community you feel a part of. I'm familiar with the following: -Tulpa (Several created their headmates on purpose, some didn't) -Endogenic (I think they're basically tulpa systems but more may struggle with mental health conditions) -Soulbond (They believe their headmates are the actual person from their fictional or non-fictional source/universe) -Gateway (Let everyone who "walks in" in, can be metaphysical) -Traumatic (OSDD/DID) I heard of "neurogenic", but I have no idea what that means. I'm sure there are other labels floating around I'm not familiar with or don't remember. Even calling yourself a system or not is a personal choice, some tulpamancers don't feel comfortable with it.

5:49 AM

I guess "Median" is also a type (the headmates all identify as pieces of one entity or the same entity rather than separate people), but that can look different in different systems (I don't know what median soulbond and gateway systems look like) Beyond "median" I don't think it makes sense to use terms that describe how separate the headmates are as the system "type". For example, a system can have a sub-system, but that doesn't change the type of system they are. (A sub-system is a group of headmates who identity as a plural person... I don't know, from personal experience it makes more sense in the context of my headmates trying to integrate) (edited)

woah, thank you! (edited)

I feel like you mixed systemic terms and descriptions of thoughtform categories there. System terms including Endogenic (which is the term for all created thoughtforms, tulpas included, but also including accidentally created ones as I understand), Traumagenic, and such; And purely describe origin rather than function. The rest of your terms describe what is essentially either system lore, or the perceived function of a thoughtform or thoughtforms. All of which is experiential and extremely variable - To such a degree that I'd wonder if it's even reasonable to try to categorize them fully.

2:08 PM

For instance, a chaos magician is unlikely to call themselves someone endogenic; And they objectively might not have what they consider a companion and therefore not a tulpa or anything else you said.

2:10 PM

Ignoring that within chaos magic there's literally an analogue spectrum on two axis for how to understand thoughtforms in terms of how they link to you - They would of course describe the thoughtform in supernatural terms as a spirit.

2:11 PM

Which is entirely distinct from all of that - And spirits don't act like you think they're fictional characters, or like you think they're a part of you. It can change the way they behave significantly

2:14 PM

I would probably say there should be some sort of meta-genic term to describe origin for such people. And I would broadly say that categorizing spirits is a whole endeavor of itself. Thankfully it is one the Chaos Mages have already done, so we could simply refer to the differences in their terms - Godforms, Companions, Servitors, Demons, Angels, etc.

I think there's little point in trying to describe the type of maybe sentient entity a system has as a "system type", so I stuck with cultural labels. You can have a gateway headmate who's more developed than someone's tulpa, and you can have alters with more lore than a soulbond. How separate a headmate is also doesn't seem to matter, at least from what I have seen when it comes to traumatic/tulpa systems. I also left out people with developed imaginary friends, chaos magicians, and people who probably have God tulpas because they don't identify themselves as systems or are even aware their headmate(s) is a/are person/people yet (edited)

All I'm saying is that many of those terms, tulpamancy itself included - Is not even a lore paradigm, it's one piece of lore attached to a thoughtform. Take tulpamancy - "You are a generated mental companion" is the only real presumption there. That's nothing. It doesn't describe anything. Which is why I think in terms of cultural categorization it would better to be reductive to the only real discernible difference it shows, the "generated" part. Gateways have one presumption that thoughtforms can or should be accepted as real for whatever reason. Soulbonds are nebulous to the point where I've seen it used in multiple ways so I don't even think it's a worthwhile term atm. Traumagenic and Endogenic describe something that is fairly concrete however, it describes the paradigm and context in which a thoughtform was derived. And these paradigms do have considerable knock-on effects. There's overlap and greyness between thoughtforms individually but it is difficult to argue that thoughtforms created by a paradigm don't act similarly. Tulpas act like mental companions, Alters are vessels for pathology, Demons are horny, etc - And this relies on how they were made just as much as their lore.

2:27 PM

It tells you more that someone is traumagenic, endogenic, or ... whatever you want to call magic-genic, than Gateway does. Gateway tells you nothing about how thoughtforms are.

2:29 PM

On the other hand, if we were to categorize broadly by individual terms we can apply to thoughtforms - Things that I would include gateway and soulbond on, the list would be massive, and should include literally every presumption that could ever be presumed.

2:30 PM

At least hypothetically.

2:31 PM

Such a thing would include all the metaphysical terms of even slight variants. The full spectrum of connection or dissociation a la median. Probably even presumptions of the details of their personality.

2:32 PM

To get meta we could even include as a category whether or not they rejected their personality details!

2:33 PM

Which of course, should be itself a spectrum.

Eh, I don't know if traumatic or endogenic are helpful either. With traumatic systems, there are a good number of them who are really endogenic systems with heightened insecurities. Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced DID is just dysfunctional plurality + other mental health conditions mixed together. The only thing that really seems to determine how a system operates is what mental health conditions they have. A system with schizophrenia is going to work differently than a system with anxiety and work differently than a system without mental health conditions. Since you can't verify a diagnosis on the internet, I think it's pretty pointless to try, and all of this just going off the experiences people describe and not rigorous scientific testing (or expertise on psychology). (edited)

Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced DID is just dysfunctional plurality

I've always thought this. It is conjecture at this stage, obviously, but I think I fall into the camp that when the young do this to themselves they are literally using suggestion to do so - "This is not happening to me."

I think OSDD is dysfunctional plurality, DID is dysfunctional plurality with other mental health conditions. I have noticed stuff reported in traumatic systems that were really different, and I think it's simply because they're working with a different brain with different rules. Even my system is weird enough we have to clarify not all of our experiences are normal.

I think it's simply because they're working with a different brain with different rules

The thing is that it's important to remember their brains change because they get stunted development in certain areas and overly-increased development and reliance on certain others. There doesn't seem to be much cause to believe that people with DID were really different before trauma, other than perhaps having a genetic disposition toward suggestion, which is perfectly normal.

2:41 PM

I would posit the resulting changes as resulting from the early adoption of dysfunctional plurality, rather than the other way around, though there is a feedback loop.

I'm not an expert, but I thought once you get PTSD, you can treat it but it leaves a mark. I don't know if you can cure PTSD, much less cPTSD. I know BPD is curable but some conditions like autism and adhd are not (for now anyway). At the very least, I remember reading somewhere that brain scans show different brain activity in patients with PTSD I found this article talking about it, but I don't think it says anything about PTSD being permanent. I think it's stating PTSD might be caused by brain structure: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31515885/

With these things it's important to remember the brain very much is a use-it-or-lose-it machine. There's a danger in reading "this person has a different brain" as "this person has a different brain for genetic reasons, and has grown into this shape". This is not how PTSD or DID really work. The brain shifts its shape as it is used, and if your behaviour causes you to circumvent parts of the brain, they will deteriorate, which worsens the problem, and is certainly visible but isn't actually the cause of the issue. (edited)

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I feel like this is a discussion for doctors and not us. I hope psychologists and medical experts can shine some light on this in the future.

So we're thinking of system names anyone know if Hope System is taken?

Probably somewhere. Pretty sure I heard of it. Will you run into them though?

Figured Yeah we'll probably try to come up with a few others before we settle, thanks

9:20 PM

But leaning towards Hope since it's meaningful to us

Just take it if you want, sure theres plenty of people out there with the same system name

True!

If I hadn't taken Zen long before as my own identifier I suspect that would've been my systemic name. As it stands though, I don't think such a name is necessary with just two of us at present.

yeah we don't bother with a system name for that reason either

9:31 PM

i fully doubt we ever make a 3rd

Fair I just like the idea of a neutral name to refer to both of us as, even though we don't plan on any additions either

... Wait do you actually have a tulpa AZ? I don't think I've ever seen any whisper of their existence.

9:34 PM

Reveal your secret lore to me.

Yes I do exist

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9:38 PM

For 5 years

... My God. The God of Discord.

lol

Thanks for the platform.

You're very welcome

9:39 PM

Oh I am laughing, you just made my day

1

Nice to see ya :)

9:46 PM

Lore unlocked

Thank you. I should be more active

rovvy

So we're thinking of system names anyone know if Hope System is taken?

yes by like 8437923 different systems but yolo